February 7

S2 E21 – What Defines Success for NC State?


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– Duke
– played hard….slow start, maverick had a good first half
– thought it was a good coaching job by Gott, players didnt execute.
– Dickie V, “Brice Johnson is a lock for ACC POY” frustrating but what do you expect.
– Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski on NC State guard Anthony “Cat” Barber: “Don’t judge how good a guy is just by the record of his team. Because they’re close to winning five more games, but he gives them a chance to win every game. He’s the toughest out in the league.”

box score nc state
2015-16 Duke vs NC State Box Score

– No 3s from the Martin boys..not a bad thing.

Evan on Gott

  •  Gott has good and Gott has bad.
  • Right to be worried about the future just as you have the right to be optimistic.
  • As I’ve said before. I’m not sure where I stand on it. i can see both sides of the argument.
  • Ncaa vs ACC results, what’s your metric for success. Defines your position.
  • Support us what matters. Arena isn’t filling up, that’s an issue.
  • DY has to look and say is Gott going to win in 5 years that’s what leaders do.
  • But I do think the looming Archie factor is real. He and his wife would not pass up a chance to move back to Raleigh and thats on everyone’s mind. Is Archie’s floor higher than Gott’s ceiling?

Dustin has an interesting comparison here, Mark Gottfried at this point into his NC State career is TOB

– Let’s dive into it.

  • Is Gottfried providing anything different than TOB did on the football side?
  • What is NC State basketball and what’s acceptable?
  • If you say that we aren’t capable of championships anymore and should be happy with being relevant then TOB should never have been fired. That’s the same logic.

– TOB’s highest finish in conference was a tie for 2nd in the division and a tie for the 3rd best record overall in the conference. Gottfried has tied for 4th twice. Other than that we’ve seen 7th, a tie for 6th, and it’ll be a good bit worse than that this season.
———-The kicker in those two 4th place ties is that they were in his first 2 years. Those were Sid’s players. Lowe was an awful coach but he put good guys on the roster. When the bulk of those guys left the conference finish started getting worse.

– TOB inherited a so-so team and never really upgraded the talent level. However, he won games with what he had and catered to the system. Gottfried is recruiting talent but his teams are trending downhill.

– TOB was fired because he wasn’t winning the conference. He would get us to bowl games and that was it. What has Gott done? The loving crowd will say we’ve been to 4 tournaments and 2 Sweet Sixteens. They’re right. Is that as impressive as it seems? I don’t really think so.

– We’ve been an 11, 8, 12, and an 8 seed. A team with 2 national titles in its history can’t be higher than an 8 seed? Is that what NC State basketball is?

– I can see the excitement of being in the tournament. Just being in it is acceptable for some schools. But looking at those seeds seems like something I’d expect from a Wake Forest or a normal conference winner from a smaller school. I’ll use Dayton as an example just to piss more people off.
– I’m going to rattle off 2 sets of seeds. Tell me which sounds better –
– 11, 8, 12, 8
– 7, 9, 3, 10

– Those are Gott’s first 4 years and Herb’s first 4 years. Sendek had a 5th straight year in the tournament as a 10th seed. Gott won’t have that.
– Branching off that – Gott gets teams into the tournament because he’s a master of the schedule. Being good at planning schedules isn’t all it takes to be a good coach. NC State should make the tournament. NC State shouldn’t be sitting on the bubble hoping that scheduling is what gets them in.
– TOB got teams to the football version of a postseason. We made bowl games. The schedule helped some of those years. We wouldn’t have necessarily made a bowl game without the help of a good schedule to get us there.
So the next argument people cling to is that we’ve had 2 sweet sixteens in 4 years. (I know. I was one of those guys.) Let’s break those down –

2012 (11) 
– In the first game we had a matchup against Goliath like San Diego St (6). That’s right – We were 5 seeds lower than San Diego State. Woo yay. NC State should beat San Diego State EVERY DAMN TIME they step on the court. As it should have been State won 79-65. We should be in the top half of the ACC every year. That’s the result that should come from an upper half ACC team playing SDSU.

– In the second game we had a 3 point win over Georgetown (3). This was a good Georgetown team and it was a close win. It was a good win. Georgetown and NCSU should be close to each other in perception and expectations. Nothing wrong with that.

– Next round we lose to Kansas (2). We lost 60-57. There’s no shame in that. They were very good that year and we should have lost that.

– This was a good run. This was the more respectable of the 2 sweet sixteens.
2015 (8)

– In the first game we needed a last second tip-in from Anya to beat a 9 seed LSU. This was LSU without Ben Simmons. This was a 9 seed out of the SEC. There was nothing impressive about this win except for the fact that they didn’t quit. This team had Trevor Lacey. This team should have won that game before the last second.

– Here it is. The one that gives everyone a chubby. #1 Villanova goes down. I won’t say that a win over a 1 seed isn’t impressive because it is. I WILL say that a few weeks before the bracket came out I talked on this podcast about how I PRAYED we got Nova. I knew we could beat them. It was a horrible matchup for them and I thought we were a better team. You can go back and listen to this. I said we’d beat Nova. They were an overrated 1. Either way we won.

– Next game we lose to another ACC team in 4 seed Louisville. We should be on close to an even level with Louisville. They beat us by 10.

– A sweet sixteen is a sweet sixteen. I can break down the negatives all day but it is what it is.

– So cool. 4 years and 2 sweet sixteens. 50% of the time it happens. The first one was pretty convincing. The second? Last second win against LSU doesn’t get me stoked.

– As for the other 2 years – 2013 brought a loss to 9 seed Temple in the first game. 2014 brought a win in the FIRST FOUR. THE FIRST FOUR. We beat fellow 12 seed Xavier before losing to 5 St. Louis in the next game. The actual start of the tournament. The first four shouldn’t even count. We’ve basically been one and done’s in the other 2.

– TOB won a few bowl games. Did he win a championship? No. Gottfried has won some postseason games. Did he win a championship? No. No ACC regular season, no ACC tournament. and he’s won a couple of games in the tournament 2 out of 4 years. Do both of those not seem like the definition of mediocrity?

– With TOB we expected to make a bowl game. With Gott we expect to make the tournament. With TOB we expected to sometimes win the bowl game. With Gott we can sometimes expect to advance in the tournament. It’s gone nowhere past that.

Do we want to be a sweet sixteen team? Is that the ceiling? Is that what your season tix and WPC dollars get you? A team that never contends for a championship? Is that acceptable? If it is then, by all means, I congratulate you. You’re getting exactly what you want.
Problem is – NCSU is more than that. TOB led a football program that didn’t win championships but had some notable wins (remember how much you enjoyed those FSU and Clemson wins?) Seem mediocre? Gottfried leads a program that doesn’t win championships but has some notable wins (Seems the only games we can win this year are against ranked teams.) What’s the difference?


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  • Don’t think Gottfried has done bad job at all. I do feel like if we could get Archie Miller, we must go for that. This is a cut throat business. We MUST do what we can to compete at high level. I feel Archie offers higher ceiling due to x and o, teaching , motivation. I feel gottfried strengths includ recruiting and motivation.

    Again, not 100% Fire Gottfried. This is just healthy discourse 🙂

  • If there’s ANY chance we could get Archie, I say do it. It will cost $$$ to buy out Gott, but doesn’t it cost more money over time when fans aren’t interested, & grads over 45 can’t remember when we were real good & aren’t real interested in coming to games, or most importantly, giving to the WPC for seats. Likely, we’ll have a better team next year w/Henderson, D. Smith, & hopefully Cat, but will that mean another 24-13 type record & maybe Sweet 16 only to fall back the next year. Point is…this program isn’t building like similarly situated UVa, Miami & Maryland which hired coaches the year before or same year as Gott was hired. I’d be much more inclined to give Gott a mulligan for this year if he’d had at least one really good year so far. The comparison to TOB is fair, as is one to Herb: Herb’s last 5 years 23-11, 18-13, 21-10, 21-13, 22-10 (95-57) versus Gott’s first 5 of 24-13, 24-11, 22-14, 22-14, 12-11 so far this year (102-63). We play a few more games now, but winning % is almost identical. I’m thinking NCSU b-ball is sorta like that Direct TV commercial where the dad tells his son “we’re settlers boy, we settle for things”

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